La Stampa<\/em> a story about the \u00e2\u20ac\u0153verbale\u00e2\u20ac\u009d or \u00e2\u20ac\u0153transcript\u00e2\u20ac\u009d of the conversation between Paul VI and Archbp. Marcel Lefebvre\u00c2\u00a0of the SSPX of 11 September 1976.\u00c2\u00a0 \u00c2\u00a0It was recently published in a book.\u00c2\u00a0 More on that below.<\/p>\nAs I read this, I was overtaken with great sorrow.\u00c2\u00a0 The frustration of these two men, talking to, at, across each other is palpable.\u00c2\u00a0 Lefebvre\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s sad determination and Paul\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s somewhat feckless na\u00c3\u00afvet\u00c3\u00a9 come through. \u00c2\u00a0Note their exchange about the number of Eucharistic prayers in France and Paul\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s insistence that \u00e2\u20ac\u0153great graces\u00e2\u20ac\u009d were coming from the Council despite the rampant abuses that were multiplying at the time.\u00c2\u00a0 \u00c2\u00a0I am reminded of Paul\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s self-contradictory assurances on the eve of the promulgation of the Novus Ordo before Advent 1969.<\/p>\n
Hindsight is an advantage.\u00c2\u00a0 However, there was plenty of evidence right in front of everyone\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s face at the time that something wasn\u00e2\u20ac\u2122t right.\u00c2\u00a0 The solutions were not a matter of gnostic rocketry, either.<\/p>\n
Here is my fast translation, since I am staring at literal piles of stuff to be handled.\u00c2\u00a0 I hope someone else will also take it in hand.\u00c2\u00a0 I left some of the background out.\u00c2\u00a0 My emphases<\/strong> and comments<\/strong>:<\/p>\n\u00e2\u20ac\u0153Perhaps there was something not appropriate in my words, in my writings; but I didn\u00e2\u20ac\u2122t ever want to get to (raggiungere) your person, I never had that intention\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6 I cannot grasp how in a single stroke I am condemned because I form priests in obedience to the holy tradition of Holy Church.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d<\/p>\n
\u00e2\u20ac\u0153That\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s not true. You said and wrote many times that you were wrong and why you were wrong.\u00c2\u00a0 You never wanted to listen\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6 You said it and you wrote it.\u00c2\u00a0 I would be a modernist Pope.\u00c2\u00a0 Implementing an Ecumenical Council, I would betray the Church.\u00c2\u00a0 You understand that, if that were the case, I would have to abdicate; and to invite you to take my place to direct the Church.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d<\/p>\n
A dramatic document, transcribed by typewriter in Italian with French interjections.\u00c2\u00a0 Pope Montini on 11 September 1976 received at Castel Gandolfo the French\u00c2\u00a0Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, head of the fraternity of St. Pius X and great protester (gran contestatore) against the Council. The special transcriber (verbalizzante de\u00e2\u20ac\u2122eccezione), whom Paul VI wanted to be present at the audience together with his special secretary, Fr. Paolo Macchi, was the Sostituto of the Secretary of State Giovanni Benelli (who a few months later would be promoted to Archbishop of Florence and created Cardinal): a special assistant, who 10 years before had been pro-nuncio in Senegal, where until a few years before the French prelate had been our missionary Bishop. The transcript of the conversation \u00e2\u20ac\u201c between the Pope, who had brought the Council to a conclusion and had promulgated the liturgical reform, and the rebel Bishop who challenged the authority of the Pontiff \u00e2\u20ac\u201c was published in a book \u00e2\u20ac\u0153La barca di Paolo\u00e2\u20ac\u009d<\/strong> written by the director of the pontifical household Fr. Leonardo Sapienza.<\/p>\n[\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6]<\/p>\n
The meeting, one reads in the transcript just published, lasted a little more than a half hour, from 10:27 to 11:05. The transcription fills eight pages. \u00e2\u20ac\u0153His Holiness has charged the Sostituto to transcribe his conversation with Msgr. Lefebvre: if, during the conversation, he would have thought it opportune to intervene, he would have mentioned it\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. But there is no trace of intervention by Benelli. Notwithstanding the presence of two witnesses, the Sostituto and Fr. Macchi, the conversation was always between the Pope and Lefebvre, alternating in Italian and French.<\/p>\n
\u00e2\u20ac\u0153I hope to have before me, a brother, a son, a friend. Unfortunately, the position that you have taken is that of an anti-pope \u00e2\u20ac\u201c Paul VI exhorted \u00e2\u20ac\u201c what should I say? You have not acquiesced in any way in your words, in your acts, in your behavior. You did not refuse to come to me. And I would be happy to be able to resolve such a distressing situation. I will listen; and I will invite you to reflect. I know that I am a poor man. But right now it is not a person who is in play: it is the Pope. And you have judged the Pope to be unfaithful to the faith to which he is the supreme guarantor. Perhaps this is the first time in history that this has happened. You have told the entire world that the Pope does not have faith, that he does not believe, that he is a modernist, and so forth. Yes, I have to be humble. But you are in a terrible position. You are carrying out acts, before the whole world, of extreme gravity\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6\u00e2\u20ac\u009d.<\/p>\n
Lefebvre defends himself saying that it was not his intention to attack the person of the Pope, he admits: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153perhaps there was something not appropriate in my words in my writings.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d He adds that he is not alone, but has \u00e2\u20ac\u0153with him some bishops, some priests, numerous faithful\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. He affirms that \u00e2\u20ac\u0153the situation in the Church after the Council\u00e2\u20ac\u009d is \u00e2\u20ac\u0153such that we cannot understand any longer. What to do. With all these changes either. We risk losing the faith or we give the impression of being disobedient.<\/strong> I would want to get on my knees and to accept everything, but I cannot go against my conscience<\/strong>. I am not the one who created a movement\u00e2\u20ac\u009d it is the faithful \u00e2\u20ac\u0153who do not accept this situation. I am not the head of traditionalists\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6 I am acting exactly as I did before the Council.\u00c2\u00a0I cannot grasp how in a single stroke I am condemned because I form priests in obedience to the holy tradition of Holy Church.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d [NB: Libs claim all the time that they are following their \u00e2\u20ac\u0153conscience\u00e2\u20ac\u009d.\u00c2\u00a0 But, apparently, only they are allowed to do that.]<\/strong><\/p>\nPaul VI intervenes to disagree: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153\u00e2\u20ac\u009dThat\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s not true. You said and wrote many times that you were wrong and why you were wrong.\u00c2\u00a0 You never wanted to listen.\u00c2\u00a0 You continue your expos\u00c3\u00a9.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d<\/p>\n
Lefebvre responds: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153Many priests and many faithful think that it is difficult to accept the tendencies that are going on day after (sic<\/em> That\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s how it is in the transcript) . The Second Ecumenical Vatican Council, about liturgy, about religious liberty, about the formation of priests, about relations between the Church and Catholic states, about relations of the Church with Protestants. We don\u00e2\u20ac\u2122t see how what is affirmed conforms to the sound Tradition of the Church. And, I repeat, I am not the only one who thinks this. There are a lot of people who think this way. People who grab on to me and push me, often against my will, to not leave them\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6 In Lille, for example, I was not the one who wanted to put on that protest\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6\u00e2\u20ac\u009d.<\/p>\n\u00e2\u20ac\u0153But what are you saying?\u00e2\u20ac\u009d, Pope Montini interrupted. \u00e2\u20ac\u0153Not me\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6 It\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s the television\u00e2\u20ac\u009d, Lefebvre stutters in his defense. \u00e2\u20ac\u0153But the television,\u00e2\u20ac\u009d replied Paul VI, who shows he is well-informed about everything, \u00e2\u20ac\u0153transmitted what you said. It was you who spoke, in a most harsh manner, against the Pope\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. The French archbishop pushes back putting the blame on journalists: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153You know how it is, there are often journalists who oblige you to speak\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6 And I have the right to defend myself. The Cardinals, who have judged to be in Rome have calumniated me: and I believe I have the right to say that they are calumnies\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6 I don\u00e2\u20ac\u2122t know what to do anymore. I am trying to form priests according to the faith and into the faith. When I look at other seminaries, I suffered terribly: unimaginable situations<\/strong>. And then: the religious who where the habit are condemned and insulted by bishops: on the other hand, the ones who are appreciated, are those who live a secularized life, and who act like people of the world\u00e2\u20ac\u009d.<\/p>\nPope Montini observes: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153But we have in no way approved these behaviors. Every day we strive with great effort and with equal tenacity to eliminate certain abuses<\/strong> not consistent with the present law of the Church, which is that of the Council and of Tradition. If you had taken the trouble to see, to grasp what I do and say every day, to assure for the Church faithfulness to yesterday and response to today and yes, also tomorrow, you would not have arrived at the sad point in which you find yourself. We are the first to deplore excesses. We are the first and the most solicitous to search for a cure. But this cure cannot be found in a challenge to the authority of the Church. I have written this to you repeatedly. You have not taken my words into consideration\u00e2\u20ac\u009d.<\/p>\nLefebvre responded saying that he wanted to speak about religious liberty because \u00e2\u20ac\u0153what we read in the conciliar document is contrary to what your predecessors have said\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. The Pope says that these are not topics to discuss in the course of an audience, \u00e2\u20ac\u0153But,\u00e2\u20ac\u009d he assures, \u00e2\u20ac\u0153I take note of your uncertainty: it is your attitude against the Council\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. \u00e2\u20ac\u0153I am not against the Council,\u00e2\u20ac\u009d Lefebvre interrupted, \u00e2\u20ac\u0153but against some of its texts\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. \u00e2\u20ac\u0153If you are not against the Council,\u00e2\u20ac\u009d Paul VI responded, \u00e2\u20ac\u0153you have to adhere to it, to all its documents\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. The French archbishop responded: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153it\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s necessary to choose between that which the Council said, and that which your predecessors have said\u00e2\u20ac\u009d<\/strong>.\u00c2\u00a0 [Sound familiar?]<\/strong><\/p>\nThen Lefebvre addresses to the Pope, \u00e2\u20ac\u0153a prayer. Would it not be possible to prescribe that bishops grant, in churches, a chapel in which the people can pray as they did before the Council? Today everything is permitted to everyone: why not permit something also for us?\u00e2\u20ac\u009d<\/strong>. Paul VI responds: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153we are the community. We cannot permit autonomy of behavior to various parts<\/strong>\u00e2\u20ac\u0153. Lefebvre responds: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153the Council admits pluralism. We ask that this principle be applied also to us.<\/strong> If your holiness would do this, everything would be resolved. There would be an increase of vocations. Aspirants to the priesthood want to be formed in true piety. Your holiness has in your hands. The solution to the problem\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. Then the traditionalist French archbishop says he is disposed that someone from the congregation for religious \u00e2\u20ac\u0153oversees my seminary\u00e2\u20ac\u009d, he says he\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s ready not to hold any more conferences and to remain in his seminary. \u00e2\u20ac\u0153Without going out anymore\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6\u00e2\u20ac\u009d.<\/p>\nPaul VI reminds Lefebvre that Bishop Adam (Nestor Adam, Bishop of Sion), \u00e2\u20ac\u0153came to talk to me in the name of the Swiss Episcopal Conference, to tell me that his activity could not any longer be tolerated\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6 What must I do? Try to come back into order. How can you consider yourselves in communion with us, when you take positions against us, in front of the whole world, to accuse us of infidelity, of a desire to destroy the Church?\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. \u00e2\u20ac\u0153I never had the intention\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. Lefebvre defended himself.\u00c2\u00a0 \u00c2\u00a0But Pope Montini replied: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153You said it and you wrote it.\u00c2\u00a0 I would be a modernist Pope.\u00c2\u00a0 Implementing an Ecumenical Council, I would betray the Church.\u00c2\u00a0 You understand that, if that were the case, I would have to abdicate; and to invite you to take my place to direct the Church.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d<\/p>\n
And Lefebvre: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153There is a crisis in the Church.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d Paul VI: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153And we are suffering profoundly. You have contributed to aggravate it, with your solemn disobedience, with your open challenge against the Pope\u00e2\u20ac\u009d<\/strong>.<\/p>\nLefebvre replies: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153I have not been judged as I ought\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. Montini responds: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153Canon law judges you. Haven\u00e2\u20ac\u2122t you seen the scandal and the damage that you have done to the church? Are you conscious of it? Do you think you can go before God like this? Make a diagnosis of the situation, an examination of conscience and then ask, before God: what should I do?\u00e2\u20ac\u009d.<\/p>\n
The Archbishop proposes: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153It seems to me that opening up a little the host of possibilities to act today as we acted in the past, everything would work itself out. This would be the immediate solution. As I have said, I am not the head of the movement. I am ready to remain closed up forever in my seminary. The people who remain in contact with my priests and they remain edified. It\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s the young people who have the sense of the church: they are respected in the streets, in the subway, everywhere. Other priests no longer wear the cassock, they don\u00e2\u20ac\u2122t hear confessions anymore, they don\u00e2\u20ac\u2122t pray anymore. And people have chosen: there are the priests whom we want\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. (The priests formed by Msgr. Lefebvre, the transcriber notes).<\/p>\n
At this point Lefebvre asks the Pope if he is conscious of the fact that there are \u00e2\u20ac\u0153at least 14 cannons used in France for the Eucharistic prayer\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. Paul VI responds: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153not only 14, but hundreds\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6 There are abuses; but the good brought by the Council is great.<\/strong> I don\u00e2\u20ac\u2122t want to justify everything; as I have said, I\u00e2\u20ac\u2122m trying to correct things where it is necessary. But it is necessary, at the same time, to recognize that there are great signs, graces from the Council<\/strong>, of of vigorous upswing among young people, a growth of sense of responsibility among the faithful, priests, bishops\u00e2\u20ac\u009d.<\/p>\nThe Archbishop replies: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153I\u00e2\u20ac\u2122m not saying that everything is negative. I want to collaborate for the building up of the Church.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d Pope Montini responds to him: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153but it is not so, certainly, that you contribute to the building up of the Church. But do you know what you are doing? Do you know that you are going directly against the Church, the Pope, the Ecumenical Council? How can you claim for yourself the right to judge a Council? A Council, after all, whose acts, in great part, were signed also by you. Let us pray and reflect, subordinating everything to Christ and to his Church. I too will reflect on it. I accept with humility your rebukes.<\/strong> I am at the end of my life. Your harshness is for me an occasion for reflection. I will also consult with my offices as for example the Sacred Congregation for Bishops, etc. I am sure that you also will reflect. You know how I had esteem for you, that I recognized your merits, that we found ourselves in agreement, at the Council, about many problems\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. \u00e2\u20ac\u0153That\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s true\u00e2\u20ac\u009d, Lefebvre recognizes.<\/p>\n\u00e2\u20ac\u0153You understand,\u00e2\u20ac\u009d Paul VI concludes, \u00e2\u20ac\u0153that I cannot permit, also for reasons that I would call \u00e2\u20ac\u02dcpersonal\u00e2\u20ac\u2122, that you bring the guilt of a schism upon yourself. Make a public declaration, with which you retract your recent declarations and your recent behaviors, which everyone have recognized as acts taken not for the building of the Church, but to divide it, and to do it harm. From the moment you met with the three Roman Cardinals, there has been a rupture. We have to find again union in prayer and in reflection.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d. The Sostituto Benelli, transcribing, concludes the transcript of the conversation with the note: \u00e2\u20ac\u0153the Holy Father then invited Msgr. Lefebvre to recite with him a Pater Noster and Ave Maria and Veni Sancte Spiritus\u00e2\u20ac\u009d.<\/p>\n
[Here comes Turncoat Tornielli, to make sure that you are left with only a negative impression of Lefebvre and only sympathy for Paul.]<\/strong> As is known , the wishes and the prayers of Pope Montini fell on deaf ears. Although the Lefebvrist schism [the Church hasn\u00e2\u20ac\u2122t defined it as such]<\/strong> would occur more than ten years later, during the pontificate of John Paul II, when Lefebvre, nearing the end, he decided to ordain new bishops without the mandate of the Pope. Msgr John Magee, second secretary of Paul VI, recalled in a testimony that Montini, after that audience, \u00e2\u20ac\u0153hoped that the archbishop (Lefebvre) had decided to change his way of conducting attacks on the Church and the teaching of the Council, but everything was useless. From that moment Paul VI began to fast. [Post hoc\u00e2\u20ac\u00a6]<\/strong> I remember well that he did not want to eat meat, he wanted to reduce the amount of food he took even if he was already eating very little. He said he himself had to do penance, so as to offer to the Lord, in the name of the Church, the proper reparation for everything that was happening.\u00e2\u20ac\u009d [Everything, not just Lefebvre, etc.\u00c2\u00a0 Everything that Paul VI was, in great part, responsible for as well.]<\/strong><\/p><\/blockquote>\nTurncoat Tornielli, who posted this, closed with this fantastically tendentious paragraph.<\/p>\n
The crisis, by the way, was not caused by Lefebvre.\u00c2\u00a0 You can agree or disagree with what Lefebvre did in order to address that crisis.\u00c2\u00a0 However, as a bishop\u00c2\u00a0he did something<\/em>.\u00c2\u00a0 He did not remain enervated and prone on the ground to be run over by the secularizing, anthropocentric juggernaut grinding on the Church after the Council.\u00c2\u00a0 Even today. we cannot rely on Popes and the Curia to address the crisis \u00e2\u20ac\u201c crises \u00e2\u20ac\u201c in the Church.\u00c2\u00a0 Bishops must act.\u00c2\u00a0 In fact, we all have a roll to play.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":" The late, great Michael Davies (God rest his soul) published in his Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre\u00c2\u00a0(Vol. 1 Ch. 14 \u00e2\u20ac\u201c US HERE \u00e2\u20ac\u201c UK HERE) Lefebvre\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s own account of that same meeting with Paul VI on 11 Sept 1976. You can read it online\u00c2\u00a0HERE. Lefebvre\u00e2\u20ac\u2122s account is more complete in many ways.\u00c2\u00a0 \u00c2\u00a0 Frankly, […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":3,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1709","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-uncategorized"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.latinliturgy.org\/phila\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1709","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.latinliturgy.org\/phila\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.latinliturgy.org\/phila\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.latinliturgy.org\/phila\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/3"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.latinliturgy.org\/phila\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1709"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/www.latinliturgy.org\/phila\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1709\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/www.latinliturgy.org\/phila\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1709"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.latinliturgy.org\/phila\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1709"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/www.latinliturgy.org\/phila\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1709"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}
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